Answerer to OP: "No one will ever say this." I comment: "Can you provide a source to substantiate that claim?" Answerer: "I am a Native speaker."

Question

Questions:

(1) What should I do when someone refuses to provide evidence to substantiate their statements, which I believe are incorrect?

(2) How should I respond when they tell me to take their word for it because they are a native speaker, even after I provided authoritative evidence that contradicts their statements?

I don't know how to deal with such situations. I mean no harm or disrespect to anyone.

In the meta post Submitting Answers that merely answer the question, J.R. mentions

... it's important that answers be accurate. Before you submit your answer, look at it with a critical eye, and ask yourself, "How would an O.P. (or anyone else visiting the site) know that my answer is correct? Are they just supposed to take my word for it?"

Note: I'm a native speaker; therefore, I know what I am talking about does not qualify as proof of correctness.

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Sometimes, I see answerers make strong assertions without providing sufficient justification (e.g., "no one ever says this", or "we never say this").

When I feel that something isn't quite right, and that I can't agree with their claim, I ask them for a reliable/authoritative source (e.g., anything from google news, google books, usage examples, ELL/ELU posts, Wikipedia, English Language Forums, Blogs, and Dictionaries).

I have a few reasons for this: (1) if they are able to provide an authoritative source, then it helps me learn something new; (2) an authoritative source is always helpful for the OP as well as for other users in the community; and (3) it allows me to trust this user. J.R. talks about this in their answer to the this Meta post: Cite your sources!.

I recently answered a question: "What is the “small window” on a web page called?"

I wrote, "It's called a drop-down menu". I provided a definition from Cambridge Dictionary, a Wikipedia link that shows my answer is one among other options, and an Ngram that provides a usage comparison. I also pointed out that "drop-down list" is more commonly used than my original version as per the Ngram.

An answerer answered (I added the bold emphasis below)

_{It is NOT called a "drop-down menu". While that term might be "technically correct", sort-of, because it is a menu, and it is drop-down, no one will ever say "drop-down menu", because they will say "drop-down box".}

I had to comment because their answer was directly contradicting my answer. I wanted to know if they had any sources to substantiate their claim.

_{Me: Do you have any source that can substantiate this claim? "...no one will ever say..." really? Did you check google books before you made this statement?}

_{Answerer: Yes, I speak English natively and have spoken to other Americans during my life before, who have in several cases referred to this item on a computer screen. I have also read articles in English before. If all of these thinhs are true, then each English user will know that my statement is correct.*}

_{*This is essentially Gaslighting (57), The Identity fallacy (64), Red Herring (106), or Anecdotal evidence.}

What just happened? I did not ask the answerer if they were native or non-native. I wanted to see some sources to cross-check both answers (I had already provided credible sources to support my answer; show me proof that the sources I provided are wrong).

I will always trust native and non-native speakers who have established themselves here and in ELU. The quality of their answers speaks volumes. But sometimes (very rarely though) I find users I can't trust.

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Here is another example. After my comments, the answerer edited their answer (see their edit history or the first version).

_{Me: "... saying it like that sounds like you're ordering someone to get you chocolate quite rudely." Do you have any source (e.g., dictionary entry, articles, etc) to substantiate that claim?
Me:"No one says it like that in real life." - Interesting. Any sources to support this?}

_{Answerer: As a native speaker, that's how I often hear and see English used. "no one says that in real life" is just based on years of experience and using English. "that sounds like you're ordering someone rudely" is because when someone says it like that, that's just what usually it means.}

I wanted to know how "I want a chocolate now" could only "[sound] like you're ordering someone to get you chocolate quite rudely."

Also, I felt "No one says it like that in real life" was too strong of a statement for "I play games now". That would depend on the context (e.g., I can imagine a professional gamer saying "I quit my job. I play games now - full time! I compete in tournaments - the money is great!). Surely then, it can be said informally in speech. Had the answerer said "It's not common usage" or "It's very informal", I would have no problem.

Answer 1

As an answerer and a native speaker of English, there are times when I really think that nobody would ever use English the way some learners are trying to use it. That being said, you've provided good examples of where it was wrong for the person answering the question to say that. For instance, I'm a software engineer and we use the term 'drop-down-menu' all the time. It's in the dictionary so somebody must be using it.

So, I think that what you can understand when someone answers a question saying, 'Nobody would ever say that,' is that the person answering the question wouldn't say that or can't think of a reason why somebody would say that.

Another thing that can cause this response is not understanding the question well. Sometimes the question is inadvertently worded in a way that throws even native speakers off track. This happened to me the other day and we didn't get it sorted out until after a long conversation in the comments that clarified the context of the OP's question.

As I've gained experience answering questions here I've realized how important it is to explain myself. I could and should explain why 'I want a chocolate now.' sounds rude and how it could be better said in different situations.

As a learner, you shouldn't have to advise the person answering, but if they are new to the site, or from a place where people use language differently or they have not understood the question well, you might have to probe them to provide a better answer. For instance, you could say

Can you tell me what makes it sound rude?
How can I say it so it doesn't sound rude?

Also, keep in mind that it's impossible to prove a negative. It would be very hard to find a source saying that nobody would ever say something. So when you ask somebody to do that you're putting them in an impossible position. They are bound to react unless they have very strong presence of mind. Instead, you could invite them to think further by saying,

I heard somebody say this the other day. It was in the following context....
I realize that some people don't use the name 'drop-down-menu' but it's in the dictionary, so it must be recognized as an applicable term.

If they still insist on being the expert based on their own experience, in the face of evidence to the contrary, then they have not yet learned that their role is to be a humble teacher. Probably the most effective way to change that behavior is to vote their answer down and leave a comment telling them why.

Answer 2

Sometimes the right answer is that something is just idiomatic. Saying something is idiomatic is really the same as saying "because it just is", although I'd always try to give examples. Really though, this is where native English speakers have the advantage - we know our English idioms. Everybody learns their native language by chunking, which means certain idiomatic ways of saying things are natural to us without us ever needing to learn the reasons why; whereas an English learner is trying to map the rules of language that they already know from their own native language to our own, and sometimes that is the question that the OP is asking - "why?".

I'm saying that sometimes it is difficult to answer a question as asked, and a lot of answers on this site could be described as frame-challenges, because the native English speaker can often comprehend the OP's confusion better than they can their question. It is reasonable to expect at least some evidence to support an answer, but our expectation should be based more on the direction of the answer than on the insistence of the OP.

What should I do when someone refuses to provide evidence to substantiate their statements, which I believe are incorrect?

We should expect at least some evidence, but at the same time, the rules of the site mean that, if the OP didn't do even the most cursory research before you asked the question, the question isn't valid and should be closed as 'off-topic'.

If you are concerned about a poor-quality answer and the answerer isn't cooperating, I would recommend you work more closely with the OP to improve their question, which should force the accepted answer to comply and would hopefully influence voting on the answer. The more examples are built into the question, the more you force the answerer to use examples or to address the specific examples given. High-quality questions get more attention, so will get more answers, and better answers.

Beyond that advice, use the voting system. Downvote 'wrong' answers. If you know the answer is wrong, you must know the right answer, so write a better one yourself, using supporting evidence. Remember that these questions and answers are supposed to stand the test of time and be useful to future users of the site. If you write a good answer and it doesn't get the highest number of votes, it still may help someone down the line. I regularly get upvotes on answers I wrote 2 years ago, and on the tech sites, I've seen plenty of questions where the accepted answer has 10 or 20 votes while a secondary answer has hundreds.

How should I respond when they tell me to take their word for it because they are a native speaker, even after I provided authoritative evidence that contradicts their statements?

As frustrating as this is, my advice on your previous question stands - you have to trust in the voting system and work with it. Yes, there are people who will downvote your answer if they think you downvoted theirs. It is utterly childish and I just hope there are algorithms somewhere that pick up on that kind of behaviour. But even when that does appear to happen, there are lots more users and their votes. Again, referring to my previous answer, the best way to get more attention and ultimately more reliable votes on the answers is to improve the quality of the question.

Also, make proper use of comments - don't tell someone their answer is wrong in so few words - comments are meant to help improve the question/answer. They are also not for extended discussion, so if a person refuses to support their statements that is pretty much discussion over, and your best avenues are to either work with the OP or make a better answer of your own.