I asked moderators to close this question since the question itself is not about English but rather about a particular test, but basically I agree with the OP's outrage. In 2013, my score was 95, but when I took this year, about 6 months ago, the reading question has increased by 1 within same test time, and the listening section had become also outrageously challenging and the overall score downed to 60! after studying intensely for about a month. Would you think it would be possibly the tightening the immigration policy by Obama and Trump administrations? Thank you for any info in advance.
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1I doubt it. If the test has intentionally been made more difficult, I’d reckon it’s more likely by request from higher ed institutions.– J.R. ModCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 3:04
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But, the reading section has increased by 1 to 4 within 60 minutes' time compared with 4 years before (default). Can it be alone the proof that the test has become more difficult? I mean, then, why did the "higher ed institutions" start to require much more knowledge and skills? I scored TOEFL CBT (which even lacks speaking section) by 273, which is almost perfect. This test is getting more and more difficult. I don't understand why the "high ed institutions" are getting severer and severer year by year.– user17814Commented Dec 25, 2018 at 3:54
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1I'm not going to assume anything but it's not necessarily because of the immigration policies. The higher ed institutions could simply not be too fond of the fluency of the examinees and considering some people I see around me in real life that brag high TOEFL iBT scores I wouldn't be surprised.– M.A.R.Commented Dec 25, 2018 at 8:12
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4This is only a theory (hence only a comment), but perhaps many students were scoring high on the TOEFL but performing poorly in terms of English proficiency in the classroom. This can happen when an exam gets too predictable, and therefore does a better job of measuring test prep rather than true English proficiency (which TOEFL was designed to measure). If that’s the case, it’s not hard to imagine higher ed institutions putting pressure on test makers to improve the test – and increasing the number of readings seems an easy way to do that. After all, how much can one discern from one reading?– J.R. ModCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 10:58
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@J.R. Yes, that's understandable. If your theory is true, my conspiracy? supect theory will be negated. Though, I am still suspecting since around Obama administration age, when iBT was introduced, replacing CBT, this exam has been getting harder and harder.......– user17814Commented Dec 25, 2018 at 12:54
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2This Meta-Q intrigued me, especially in the linked comments where you wonder how native speakers would fare on this test. So I downloaded this set of sample TOEFL iBT questions. Anecdotally, I’ll tell you this seems very straightforward (if tedious) from a native speaker’s perspective. I certainly couldn’t come close to passing the analog to this test in any non-English language, but I’d expect to ace it in English, not due to any aptitude, just because it’s straightforward “reading” to me. Don’t know if this helps or not.– Dan BronCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 13:13
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@DanBron Thank you for your example. Though the "real" test is much harder than that example though...(nobody can't copy the original so that I can't paste the "real" test). Even from that example alone, do native speakers think the term "Cretaceous period" is easy for non native speakers? I don't know what year that age belongs to.– user17814Commented Dec 25, 2018 at 13:27
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2I think native speakers assume learning English is hard for everyone. Remember most Americans only speak English, and a lot of us have painful memories of high school trying to learn Spanish or French or German and remembering how difficult and painful it was. As for "Cretaceous period" specifically; I don't think that's a matter of learning English (except maybe pronouncing it?). That's science, and the word is Latin, and is the same in all languages. For reading comprehension purposes, you don't actually have to know "when" it was, only that the article is about a period of time.– Dan BronCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 14:04
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3If native speakers know what the Cretaceous period is at all, we simply associate it with the dinosaurs (which is an extremely vague notion indeed). I was a science nerd so I have a more detailed understanding of it, but I think most people would not.– Dan BronCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 14:05
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Yes, so "that background" knowledge is an agony to non native speakers, I guess. Though, if one knows what Pretaceous age is or not does not matter to solve the question, wouldn't it "bother" non native speakers' minds at least as big as small intestine? ^^– user17814Commented Dec 25, 2018 at 14:10
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2Kentaro: What I'm saying is most Americans probably do not know what the Cretaceous period is, do not have that background, and knowing what it is isn't a matter of English. I don't think it would bother a native speaker to find that word and not know what it was, but I can't speak for anyone but myself.– Dan BronCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 15:15
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2@Dan - The exam is designed to test if someone is proficient enough to enroll in college, not just walk around downtown and ask where a good restaurant is. For that reason, I’d expect scientific terms such as Cretaceous period to be in the readings. If such technical terms are too much for a non-native speaker to handle, then I pity the professor who has to explain electromagnetism, Fourier transforms, thermodynamics, anaerobic metabolism, quantum computing, or any of the other various technical topics one is likely to encounter in a four-year degree program, particularly in the STEM fields.– J.R. ModCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 18:23
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4@J.R. I’m expressing myself poorly. What I’m trying to say is specific knowledge of the term “Cretaceous period” is not needed to understand the passage or to answer the questions. Native speakers lacking this knowledge would not be inhibited by that ignorance, nor would their score on the test suffer for it. For the sake of this test, one can simply take it as an opaque symbol, which the context sufficiently defines as “a period of time, an era of history, a long time ago”. A strong command of English would allow one to know that is enough of a definition to work with.– Dan BronCommented Dec 25, 2018 at 18:27
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4One thing to understand is that TOEFL is not developed or administered by any part of the U.S. federal government. Almost all standardized exams in the U.S. are produced by private testing organizations (e.g. ACT, ETS, College Board, EMA, ERB), state boards, academic consortia, or for-profit publishers. The president does not have the power to direct such publishers to change the subject material or scoring criteria, nor to direct universities to require certain scores, and it is very unlikely that either ETS or universities aim to match federal immigration policy.– chosterCommented Dec 26, 2018 at 19:24
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1Your fear is that if you miss out on one or two words then you "fail" the test. You can miss out on the odd unusual term, that's forgivable, but you cannot say you do not understand the topic or understand the speaker's accent. The American woman speaks quite slowly and she is easy to understand. The thing to do, if you didn't catch any of the names, TLE, Porphyria, hypergraphia, etc. is to group all these illnesses or diseases under one umbrella term "mental disorders", you may not get top marks but being able to summarise a presentation is an important skill at any Anglophone university.– Mari-Lou ACommented Jan 14, 2019 at 18:14
4 Answers
It is unlikely that the increase in difficulty has anything to do with US immigration policy directly. These tests are developed by private testing companies and changes are probably caused by the clients that use the tests.
If the current tests are not sufficiently difficult to distinguish between people who are fluent enough to live independently in an English speaking country and people who are fluent enough to understand and contribute to technical discussions, that needs to be corrected. The test isn’t as useful as it could be if someone who is as fluent as a native speaker gets a similar score as some who is less fluent (but still very advanced).
I would expect that the clients using these tests understand the change in difficulty and probably have adjusted their expectations (or will once they see how the pool of candidates performs on the new tests). Universities don’t want to exclude too many international students, but they also want to make sure that the students they accept are fluent enough to be successful.
I’ve read through the long comment threads a couple times now, and I’m beginning to think that your approach toward studying for the TOEFL is entirely wrong.
One beef you seem to have is that there are so many complicated words in every practice question you encounter, and you seem to think that, if you can just master all of those complicated words, you’d be able to achieve a high score on the exam. Yet this seems like a Herculean task.
Here’s the rub: you could memorize the definitions of all the complicated and unfamiliar words you find in your practice tests – meteorite, bucolic, ephemeral, existential, etc. – and still perform poorly on the test, because those are probably not the words that will appear the test (they are merely examples of the different kinds of words you will likely encounter on the test).
The TOEFL is not like a vocabulary test, where we memorize definitions from a given list of words and we are later tested on those definitions. Rather, the test is designed to measure English proficiency in an academic setting. It is designed to determine if you are likely to succeed at a university or if the language barrier is too great for you to be able to achieve success. In other words, suppose a professor is trying to teach you a difficult concept like Fourier transforms or thermodynamics. Will you be able to follow what he is saying? Or will it all sound like uninterpretable drivel to you?
I looked at this one passage from the sample questions Dan Bron linked to:
He’s eccentric. He has a hobby that he’s obsessive about – in this case, it’s the love of roses. He’s a fanatic about the breeding of roses; and here think of Nero Wolfe and his orchids, Sherlock Holmes and his violin, a lot of those later classic detective heroes have this kind of outside interest that they go to as a kind of antidote to the evil and misery they encounter in their daily lives. At one point, Cuff says he likes his roses because they offer solace, uh, an escape, from the world of crime he typically operates in.
Maybe a learner doesn’t know what the words eccentric, antidote, or solace mean, but, if that’s the case, the solution isn’t necessarily to scurry to a dictionary to look up these words and memorize their meanings. Instead, the definitions can be largely deduced from context. For example, maybe I don’t know what eccentric means, but I should be able to figure out it has something to do with roses, orchids, and violins (that is, with hobbies). The words obsessive and fanatic are clues, too. If a learner is in the test center reading this passage, he should not be kicking himself that he failed to memorize the meaning of eccentric. Instead, the learner should be thinking, “Hmmm, I may not know what this means, but I can tell it has something to with being fanatical about a hobby.”
Similarly, I may not be familiar “solace”, but the passage pretty much defines it for us in the very next few words: It’s an escape from the world of crime a detective normally lives in.
In short, the test is trying to see if you can deduce the meaning of words with hints that are naturally provided within the context. And this makes perfect sense for a test that is trying to measure the English proficiency of potential students in an academic setting.
To answer your question, the test is ferociously difficult only because the language itself is ferociously difficult. I think the only way to score well on a fluency test is to become more fluent. And, as userr2684291 said in a comment, the only way to accomplish this is to immerse yourself in the language until it becomes more natural to you.
Bonus question: Can you guess the meaning of Herculean without consulting a dictionary?
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First of all, you may be right or wrong. I am using textbooks that direct me which word you should memorize and which word you don't have to, and they come from you (you the native speakers working in Japan). If you have a background knowledge, you have more advantage in any section, wouldn't you think so? And about your bonus question, I am sorry I didn't get it. Could you teach me? Thanks.– user17814Commented Jan 5, 2019 at 18:14
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4@Kentaro Tomono the word "Herculean" appears in J.R.'s answer
Yet this seems like a Herculean task.
He is arguing that you should be able to guess its meaning w/o looking it up. Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 0:37 -
@Mari-LouA Thank you so much for your continuous help. Ahhh....that said, I am sorry, J.R, I only read first half of yours, since after reading the passages, I already noticed you haven't known about this test so much. Google Amazon by "TOEFL vocabulary" , that alone produces hundreds of books such as this link[amazon.com/Official-TOEFL-Vocabulary-3000-Vocabulary/dp/…– user17814Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 1:11
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4@KentaroTomono judging from the audio snippet, it's a horrible way to learn/master words. The words are so random, unconnected, and without "meaning". A very dry and robotic way for improving one's vocabulary. Again, just basing my opinion on the audio snippet alone. A much better way to increase fluency and learn new expressions is to read answers posted by native speakers here and on EL&U Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 13:59
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1@KentaroTomono P.S. how do I know I know nothing about TOEFL? The listening and speaking parts, IMO, are horrible, inhumane. But if you pass, it means you are ready to handle the demands of a US university. About ten years ago, I helped a Chinese immigrant, called Luna, (so her second language was Italian) pass the TOEFL. She was phenomenally good at the grammar, she also knew how to write strong essays. Again, a polymath and a polyglot with a brain the size of England. One day she'll be president of Italy... well, she should. A living sponge, I've never known anyone quite like her since. Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 14:12
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1That was my first and last experence with TOEFL. I have many years of experience preparing students for Cambridge First and Advanced exams, and IELTS. Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 14:14
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5@Kentaro - Just because one website lists a bunch of words to study for the TOEFL doesn’t mean that’s a good way to prep. Let me tell a story: when I was in high school, we were prepping for a college entrance exam. Our English teacher spent 3 months giving us 1000 vocabulary words to help us score well. Yet not one of those words appeared on the exam! But one word I had learned that year did show up on the exam – a word I had learned in woodworking class, of all places.– J.R. ModCommented Jan 6, 2019 at 14:15
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@Mari-LouA Sweet, but the listening material I uploaded was made by native speakers who engage in this field for years here in my country........– user17814Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 15:50
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@KentaroTomono I did not hear the excerpt you uploaded, it's been deleted. I was referring to the Amazon audio snippet in the link you posted. Commented Jan 6, 2019 at 15:53
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2@KentaroTomono: Disturbingly, the vocabulary guide you link appears to be using deceptive naming to pass itself off as a lot more authoritative than it really is. They publish a lot of "Official Test Prep" stuff, but I'm very skeptical that they actually arranged with each of the different testing organizations to guarantee that their material is, in fact, officially recommended by the organizations that make the tests. Therefore, I would tend to be skeptical as well that their approach is really any good. A dishonest publisher probably has a lousy product. Commented Jan 7, 2019 at 3:12
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3@NathanTuggy - Probably worth mentioning at this point in the conversation is that test prep for standardized exams has become a big business. Anytime you have a high-stakes exam, there will be people ready to sell you books or other materials to help you prep for it. I'm not saying all these products are bad (I aced my GRE thanks to a $20 book that prepped me well), but, as you said, just because a book markets itself as "the official Guide to the TOEFL" doesn't mean it's the only way to study, the best way to study, or even a good way to study. Caveat emptor.– J.R. ModCommented Jan 7, 2019 at 9:57
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@Mari-LouA I was a bit surprised you were upset when I told "he doesn't seem to know about this English test so much". I meant, though name calling is not welcome here, I mentioned about J.R. Sorry for that. I understand now why you were so angry.– user17814Commented Jan 7, 2019 at 12:25
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@NathanTuggy Let me reply to you later. Sorry. ( I am wondering why this question has become such a big shot -- ).– user17814Commented Jan 7, 2019 at 12:26
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1@Mari-LouA - To be fair, it looks like KT tried to address the first part of that comment to you, and the second part to me:
I am sorry, J.R. .. I already noticed you haven't known about this test so much.
But you’re right, sometimes it’s best to leave two comments if you are trying to address two people.– J.R. ModCommented Jan 7, 2019 at 17:32 -
3@KentaroTomono "Sweet, but the listening material I uploaded was made by native speakers who engage in this field for years here in my country........" so? That doesn't mean anything substantial. Native speakers engaging in a field for years can still be bad at what they're doing. They're just humans. It's dangerous to think otherwise. Commented Jan 12, 2019 at 18:00
Not sure that you want to hear this, but I'm sharing the impressions and recollections of someone who took TOEFL in '86 when applying to US grad schools. I lived in the US 1986-90, but have not lived in an English speaking county since (I'm afraid that may also show in my fluency).
Judging from the material Dan Bron linked to TOEFL has, indeed, changed somewhat in the interim. But, I would have loved to take a test like that. Yes, you need to pick up some nuances from the text, but that has more to do with general scholastic aptitude as opposed to having an extensive/specific vocabulary.
Anyway, you mentioned taking expensive courses as a way of preparing for a test like this. I am very skeptical about the wisdom of doing that. Such courses may or may not be outright scams, but ... let me share my recollections of how I had "prepared" myself.
- The English lessons I took when in school (i.e. pre-college) did lay the foundations, basic grammar, semi-adequate vocabulary, skills in inferring the meaning of a previously unknown word. I admit that the last point was significantly aided by also studying other somewhat related languages, in my case German and Swedish. This is something you may be unable to do.
- But, the school lessons give you just the basics. To become somewhat fluent in a foreign language you really have to use it. The good news is that there are inexpensive ways of doing that. Read books. Works of fiction. I used science fiction, but pick whatever you want to read in spite of it being in English. Paperbacks in English are cheap, and undoubtedly available in your country also. At first, my reading was slow because I would take a peek at a dictionary every time I encountered an unfamiliar word. Then it dawned on me that such consultations were mostly unnecessary. If I couldn't guess the meaning more often than not the word would not appear again, or if it did, the additional context would help. If not having a precise translation bothered me, I would look it up afterwards.
- A slightly more expensive method I used (still talking about a hundred dollars per year) was to subscribe to magazines. My last year in high school I subscribed to Scientific American. I really recommend that. National Geographic could be another choice that makes sense. With a bit of luck you can find them at a local library making this a no-cost option! During my college years (with the prospect of studying in the US in the horizon) I also subscribed to Newsweek. Time would have done equally well. The point was to use English as a means of learning something new. Definitely an ability the US colleges and universities will insist that you have, don't you think?
- As you may have noticed, the bad news is that these remedies take time. I actually think this is necessary. I doubt there are ways of miraculously raising your score in a month or so. Anyone trying to sell you such a course is, well, trying to sell you something.
- A word of consolation. The admission committees are well aware of some of the difficulties foreign students may have. When applying to grad schools at least you can compensate by doing extremely well in your subject test. They will cut you some slack with TOEFL. They won't entirely ignore your score, but it is just one of the many factors. Extremely competitive places like MIT don't have to do that because they get so many applications anyway, and can afford to be picky.
- You may have noticed that above I didn't touch oral skills at all. Only reading comprehension. Listening comprehension you can practice, at the age of internet, more easily than I ever had the chance. Speaking? That actually comes relatively quickly once you move to an English speaking country (and once there don't make the mistake of mingling with only your own countrymen). A quote from a good friend and a former fellow grad student: "During your first six months you just nodded a lot" :-)
By and large, the people designing TOEFL and the people interested in your score are very reasonable. Becoming fluent in English (or any language) takes a lot of time, you need to give yourself that time.
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I'm aware that I'm not really answering the question the OP posted. Instead, I try to answer the question they, IMHO, should have asked. Commented Jan 12, 2019 at 8:46
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Thank you for your reply anyway, >At first, my reading was slow because I would take a peek at a dictionary every time I encountered an unfamiliar word. I do the same thing haha.– user17814Commented Jan 12, 2019 at 19:59
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1Actually things are a bit different between the main site and here on meta. I think that your post is helpful and relevant to the discussion here.– ColleenV ModCommented Jan 12, 2019 at 23:18
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1Checking out the history of TOEFL. The test I took was the paper based version. IIRC my score was 639/677. This chart says that is roughly equivalent to a score of 110 on the iBT version. Not fully comparable, because writing and speaking were not tested at that time. I guess they didn't have the resources for that back in the day. Commented Jan 13, 2019 at 7:06
I am sorry for people who gave me answers.
Now, I have begun to believe the difficulties of this test has nothing to do with the U.S government policy, but rather by the private sectors' directions.
However, what would you think by making the test such a difficult one the private sectors ( higher educational system ) can gain? Oh yes, "good" students.
But, do you know how hard it is now? Kindly take a look at an analysis as of 2017.
According to the site,
To get better information, it can help to hear directly from test takers themselves. Now, everyone has their own opinion on the TOEFL, but the general consensus among test takers is that, while the TOEFL can have challenging questions and test you on specific details, it won’t be too much of a challenge if you’re exposed to English regularly, such as taking classes that are in English, and you can communicate fairly easily in English. However, if you are still learning English and are only exposed to it in English-learning classes, you may struggle during the test since it does require a strong grasp of the language to score well, and because you need to be able to block out distractions like other people speaking around you.
Are you kidding me? Lol. I mean, if I can take a course every day and speak to English speakers every day, oh yeah, my score would be around 110 out of 120. But are you demanding us to live in the U.S itself? Are you trying to be funny or what? lol
Anyway, thank you Colleen and others for all the opinions and information but this test has become such a nasty one for test takers to need to be in environments where these people are exposed to English shower every day. Haha.
One of the examples of the listening section.
The pw is 0712.
Lol. I lost in the middle. haha.
To Nathan Turgy. At least the material I bought for only 6 bucks! is very worth reading, isn't it? It really depends on what book you choose to buy.
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4Why should someone who is exposed to English every day and who is extremely fluent get the same score as someone who isn’t as fluent? Isn’t that unfair? It might be unfair to require a higher score than is necessary for a purpose, but the test should measure fluency accurately. If it doesn’t distinguish between someone who commicates easily in English and someone who still finds it challenging, then the test is broken.– ColleenV ModCommented Dec 28, 2018 at 19:55
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Would the U.S institutions want the poor country folks to have no chance to get the high education in the U.S? Or would you prefer only rich guys take attendance?– user17814Commented Dec 28, 2018 at 20:03
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2The test just measures fluency. What people do based on a particular score is a different problem. Tests should measure accurately. I empathize with how difficult it is to enter the US legally if you don’t have a lot of money.– ColleenV ModCommented Dec 28, 2018 at 20:05
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Yeah, test is a test. But sometimes enough is enough. By the way, can you describe by your own words how different asteroids, comets, meteor, meteorite are without prior checking? "These" are standard words designated for score around 80 of 120. MIT's requirement is 105.– user17814Commented Dec 28, 2018 at 20:07
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4@KentaroTomono I personally can. And I think most Americans could do asteroid, comet, and meteor, but would struggle with the diff between meteor and meteorite without checking first. And MIT is an extremely elite school. It’s very very hard for regular Americans to get into, even being native speakers.– Dan BronCommented Dec 28, 2018 at 20:13
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3MIT is an elite school. I would expect it to be extremely difficult for anyone to get accepted. A student who isn’t fluent enough to get a 105 has very little chance of being successful there and taking their tuition money would do them a disservice. Anyhow, this isn’t a discussion about English really. It may be better handled on Academia.se.– ColleenV ModCommented Dec 28, 2018 at 20:15
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1I'm not a native speaker of English, but I had no trouble whatsoever understanding that recording you've uploaded; the speaker spoke slowly and clearly. But I can understand how it might've tripped you up a little (some of the words there simply aren't that common). I suggest you read a lot and listen a lot, and pay close attention to how words are pronounced in order to pick them out when you take your exam. I don't know how else to help you. Don't use subtitles when you watch movies, and try to watch both British and American movies in order to cover both pronunciations (if required).– user3395Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 17:25
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@user2684291 Yes , I tripped over the words such as "ephemeral" and "gnaled", "bucolic" etc. But as you say, it is all up to me, what I need to do is to increase the vocabulary, and the ability to catch as many words as possible. But I feel a bit agitated if that lecture was easy for "all" the non native speakers...– user17814Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 17:57
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By the way, where are you from? I am from Japan, whose TOEFL performance is one of the poorest among countries. ( The average score is same with Mongol's ). Though I don't intend to make this a reason why I performed poor, please understand in some parts of the world, English is a hard language due to the cultural difference. A student I know spent 26 thousand dollars a year and his highest score was 91. All that being said, I'm pretty sure it is only me who can help myself even though I cry over the difficulty of the test here.– user17814Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 18:15
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2@KentaroTomono Yes, those words are exactly what I was referring to when I mentioned that certain words aren't that common. So, first of all, (by the way, Happy New Year!, haha) you shouldn't beat yourself up over not knowing them, because virtually no one uses that stuff. Okay, you'll hear ephemeral here and there, but bucolic? I've seen that word maybe once or twice in my life – the same with gnarly. I only remember these words because they're so strange (there aren't that many gn- words to begin with, and bucolic also stands out – its etymology isn't apparent at first blush).– user3395Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 19:49
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Thanks. You know, when you "trip over" once and lose some parts, you can lose everything. That's where tricks may be. Although I am not "beating" myself, but sure, I need an effort for success. Again, thank you for your comment.– user17814Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 20:04
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2@KentaroTomono I used trip up, by the way. Beat yourself up is defined here. But anyway, I understand completely where you're coming from, but take heart, and work hard and the results will come. The only way to learn a language is to imitate native speakers. So do that. Read newspaper articles, short texts, and listen to the news and then try to retell these yourself; try to use the new words you encounter, and so on.– user3395Commented Dec 31, 2018 at 20:17
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I listened to that reading passage just to test. Yeah. I'm not quite happy with it. Took me a few seconds to figure out that they were discussing van Gogh. Let's be honest, the speaker mispronounced the name horribly :-) Also, if I had not known that his brother was named Theo, I would have had a hard time picking it up. To me the speaker said (roughly) vancooh (assimilates with Vancouver) as opposed fun Kogh what I would expect :-) The list of possible psychiatric maladies has several I had not heard of (in English). But, what were the test takers supposed to do with this material? Commented Jan 13, 2019 at 16:16
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I mean, I doubt you were to list all those diseases, or name the chemical van Gogh may have overdosed on (while drinking heavily)? Or? Commented Jan 13, 2019 at 16:21
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1@JyrkiLahtonen AmE, BrE, French, and other speakers all have different pronunciations for "Van Gogh," which are all different from the Dutch pronunciation. cnn.com/style/article/van-gogh-gbr-intl-scli/index.html bbc.co.uk/blogs/magazinemonitor/2010/01/… And most of them have no inkling they're doing it wrong.– shooverCommented Jan 10, 2021 at 5:07